Popping Beliefs.
People don’t change until they are ready. Period. Think about your own life: quitting smoking, losing weight, getting better sleep etc., it all happened when you were ready-- never before. Why wear yourself out trying to get someone to see the light?
People believe what they want to believe. Look at religion: folks believe some fairly wild things. Some believe that there are virgins waiting in heaven to have sex with them; some believe that those who don’t say the magic words will actually burn in an all-consuming eternal lake of fire. Some believe that a God of love was so pissed-off all the bad crap you have done that he actually had a son and killed his kid because he loved you so much; some believe that God is a he; some believe that women are here to serve men. Folks believe what they want to believe and most of our beliefs serve our needs.
I’m not so sure that Christianity as we see it and think we know it has anything to do with Jesus and what his life was about.
I definitely do not believe Jesus’ mission was to get people to believe in him. Heck, scripture claims that he said that even the devils believe. Apparently he wasn’t so big on belief, which makes me wonder why so many Christians are hung-up on what people believe. He seemed more concerned with folks following him.
I believe ignorance and fear and the pain that results breaks God’s heart. I believe greed and indifference probably pisses God off.
I believe that God loves me more than I do myself. I believe that the more I believe this the more I’ll learn to love myself. The more we love ourselves, the less pain and suffering we will tolerate in the world and lives of others. h
I think most folks are on a journey and just attempting to make sense of life and that is why they don’t change until they are ready; believe what they want to believe; and are hung-up on what others’ believe; and are not always so great at loving themselves and therefore others.
I could be wrong about everything I just said, but just because you disagree with me doesn’t mean that I am wrong. Just because I say I believe these things doesn’t mean I am right. I'm not attempting to get you to believe like me.
At least this is what I believe today.
21 Comments:
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sometimes i forget how reletive and inclusive your words are.
we both know we disagree on some things. heck, it makes for good dialogue.
my concern is the way so many folks today concentrate on one issue. for me for a long time it was sin. you know the drill, yes he loves you but there is that sin thing. I am working my way through some of that...
but the fact remains...all of us are not gonna be standing in a circle singing kum by yah and then all prance into heaven to be with God.
there are requirements...they are spelled out clearly in the NT.
which makes God more exclusive than inclusive.
I realize that this will raise some hackles.
but sometimes we have to be reminded that the gospel it self is offensive to those who do not believe.
Jeff,
We do disagree, for I do not believe that the message of jesus found in what we call the gospels is an exclusive message. It is the most inclusive message ever written in a world religion text.
You said you are "working your way through" some things. That was my point, we come to believe certain things tht hold great value, meaning, and purpose in our lives but as we grow and mature in our faith and beliefs our consciousness expands. Where will your beliefs be in five... ten.. years from now?
I think Jesus' words and lessons and parables were very much about inclusion. That is my belief. I know longer believe based on my understanding of scripture and expereince of God that Jesus was exclusive. Yes, the gospel offends... it offends greatly... it offend those who want to own and control God and send everyone who thinks differently to hell. Yes, the gospel offends... it offended the fundamentalists of the past and it offends folks today... that is why the religious folks killed Jesus 2,000 years ago and that's why they would kill him to day. Yes, Jesus was extremely offensive, but not in the southern baptist way... Jesus challenegd us to come out from behind the walls of our religion and exclusion... You are right, the religious folks who were the folks clearly spken out against in scripture will not be standing around singing as they prance into heaven... it will be those who do the will of God and that is what Jesus taught... the most exclusive one demands by his life that we become inclusive. Yes, Jesus was "relative" and inclusive. It is religuous folks who are exclusive. That is why is is so hard to repent and believe the good news.
Thanks Jeff.
It makes me feel good for you to refer to me as inclusive. I think Jesus was inclusive. It has taken me many years of study and life expereince to come to believe that my understanding of God through Jesus is one of inclusion and not exclusion.
I agree that the gopsel is offensive. As you know, the messge or good news that Jesus proclaimed was extremely offensive, especially to the religious fundamentalist who wanted to exclude others. For example the story of the Samaritian, in our day and time it would be like Jesus essentially made the hero a hindu versus a good old bible thumping southern baptist. What was Jesus attempting to teach?
The gospel always offends those who want to exclude others. That was one reason the religious powers killed him, and I think they would today. He opened the doors for those on the outside. He did things the law said that one shouldn't do. He'd do the same thing today.
He made things relative... look at what he did with the law and Sabbath. Yes, the Gopsel always offends... it offend those who want to control people and own God. Jesus invites everyone to the table, "Compel them to come". Yes, Jesus offends. His message is perhaps one of the most offesnive messages ever spoken-- offensive to the religious and politcal establishment.
You are right, folks won't be holding hands singing as they enter heaven, it will be only those who were sick enough to need the doctor, NOT the RELIGIOUS fundalmentalists who think they hold the correct belief or doctrine on God. They'll be the one's begging for a drip of water, according to Jesus.
Jeff, the only requirement according to Jesus "spelled out" in scripture is in MT 25.
Jesus was very inclusive, it was those who wanted to exclude who killed him.
"Not everyone who says to be Lord, Lord... will be saved, but only the one who does the will of my father." Who was that directed to by Jesus? By the writer? What did it mean?
Most of what we read in the Bible and Gospels were written in "defense" of the religious and politcal" establsihment of the day.
Nothing has changed, those who wanted power and control over the law and God killed Jesus then and they would kill him now. We have only substituted the Bible for the torah.
God was inclusive enough to include you and me, how could either of us dare to be the gatekeepers of God's mercy, grace and the Life of Jesus. That would make us both Pharisees.
Dear Jeff,
Thanks. Yes, I think we need to turn from our self-centered ways. I think we sin and are in great need of forgiveness. What if, like Adam all went down, with Jesus all were saved? What if we are already saved by grace and we only need to awaken to who we are as God's children? Why do we think we have so much to do with the grace of God?
Jesus said the Kingdom of God is in you.
" My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 JOHN 2
Go you! Loved your comments. :)
Julie
The synchronicity here is amazing... (although I'm getting used to amazing synchronicity)!
Just a couple of hours ago I was reflecting on how often I post against "belief" on my website, and if someone were to ask me what I believe, I imagine myself saying "I'd like to believe that I have no beliefs!" I was also thinking about Stephen Bachelor's book "Buddhism without Beliefs," and fantasized about writing something called "Christianity without Beliefs."
A week ago, I posted this comment over at The Symphonic Church Experiment.
"We who love Jesus generally get trained to think that we are members of a religion called "Christianity" founded by Jesus, and that Christianity has these "beliefs" or mental constructs that must be upheld. Failure to do so is "error" at best, "apostasy" at worse, and endangers your "salvation," a euphemism for being in danger of eternal torture.
"The problem is Jesus taught no such thing. He came proclaiming a message which he called the Good News, concerning "the Kingdom of God" (Mark, Luke) or "the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew).
"The Kingdom is a teaching that "goes past" many people, hence he says, "let him who has ears, hear," as we might say, "let the radio with an antenna receive." Its heart is not a belief system, but a way of life based on unconditional love and constant forgiveness, which gets the selfish ego out of the way and allows us to fellowship with God as "our Father."
"Repeatedly, he urged people to trust him. The Greek word pisteo is better translated as "trust" than "believe." It's a matter of the heart, not of the head. Trusting in him means trusting his message, and all his demonstrations of love, such as his forgiveness from the Cross of those who certainly weren't believers!
?We get the "religion" thing, I think mainly from the foundation of the "church" in Mt. 16:18, and the "believe" statement in Jn. 3:16-17.
"I really "believe" these statements are as simple as they appear. To trust in Jesus (which implies living his teachings) is to live in eternal life. To distrust him, is to be in condemnation, (not from him!) but from the entire blanket of selfishness that smothers the planet.
"The Matthew verse is just as simple. Church is just a Greek word that means guys who are "called out." It's not about an organization to belong to, a place to go to, or a religion to "believe in," at all.
"How does Jesus say he'll judge the world? Look at Matthew 25. Nowhere does he mention anything about belief, but about how we treat the least of those he called his brothers... human beings! Yes, I know Paul has a different take on judgment. But Paul calls himself a slave of Christ. Here, we're hearing from the Master!
"I've spent years rediscovering the simplicity of the Good News by his grace. It's been strange, because it's so different from the "belief system" I was taught. But if you've got an antenna to receive... it's worth it!
Rick,
Thanks for your thoughts.
What if I were to tell you that to a Jewish person (those who listened to these statements in the Scriptures), that "believe" is better tied to "obey." In a Hebraic mindset, the words belief, listen, and confess had to do more with conduct, not creed.
I hope that makes sense. It would flow right into the point of your post.
You can do the same thing with the greatest commandment. Jesus says love God and love neighbor, and they are inseparable. It is one commandment, not two. Just look at 1 John (ch. 3 and 4) and notice how John talks about what loving God looks like.
Thanks always for your blog, always good stuff bro.
Wow! Rick, take a look at my entries The Evangelicals and The Evangelical Agenda. Your entry here speaks to the heart of my motivation behind my feelings about 'evangelicalism'. Please don't get me wrong. I would love to see everyone choose Christ. But, as you made clear in this entry, they have to choose Him.
I am not at all convinced that the Great Commandment was intended as the primary objective of Christ's church. Like you, I do not believe that Christ's motivations was to get people to believe in Him. I believe that in the relentless pursuit of evangelism we miss opportunities to worship and praise God in other ways. The Evangelical Agenda has placed evangelism so central to the Christian life that the church has it as its prime directive for every thing it does. I think the heart of the statement, "true religion is to help widows and orphans" has been lost.
I believe that I need to learn to trust God more. As I trust God more there will be more in my life that causes people to ask about the hope that is within me. And I will be prepared to give an answer.
This is my first visit to your blog. Reading your profile I suspect that we are walking along the same path. I'll be back to read more. Thanks.
smittie at smittieandcompany dot com
fall in love... and all of this goes away.
Thanks folks.
Jeff, thanks for putting it out there. I know your heart is well intentioned. Thanks for feeling safe enough and bold enough to write your thoughts!
Julie, thanks for stopping by and for your encouragement.
Jon, beautiful.... right on.
Mike and Smittie, hey guys thanks for the comments and I appreciate the links. keep coming back!
Bruce, I think you are right, but falling in love is a process for many. It doesn't happen by simply making a decision. I am not saying you are suggesting this. I thnk you mean, ONCE we are in love all this goes away. You seem to have found your place with God, that's beautiful. Many folks are still on the journey and attempting allow God to heal those places within them that have been hurt by religion so that they can fall in love. Just like human relationships, some folks need to heal parts of themselves so they can be loved and can love back.
Thanks!
That's cool, Rick... but what about the whole "ask and you shall receive" thing?
terrific post.
He wants us to follow Him. yep in a nutshell
and to be His hands, feet and voice, pouring oil of healing out into a broken hurting world.
be blessed
what an exchange!
Well it is a rare thing brother, but I'm gonna diverge a bit from you on this one in a few areas.
One , at least one of the Gosepls and perhaps more are intended to inspire trust and belief in Jesus. The entire Gospel of John is meant, quite unabashedly, to reveal his Glory and in the waning chapters the intent is clearly spelled out.
Jeff's questions are good ones and deserve more discussion. We are, many of us, caught in a unique time where we wish to stretch out and be truly inclusive (I know I do) but also need deal with the radical nature of the Gospel on its own terms and also with an unmanageable Deity who's ways are not our ways, and , well, the thought process seems to differ as well.
No, we are not more merciful than God (and you and I are men who love mercy)...but there are some hard edges we may be avoiding. I think of Proverbs 3 where lovingkindess and truth are bound around the neck and imprinted in the soft clay of human hearts.
Not so easy being human...is it?
Mac! Nice to hear from you.
I agree, especially John. (written nearly 70 years after Jesus's ministry. 90-100 AD) Just full of red letters and pages and pages of what Jesus said. I suspect in some form all the Gospels written by the early church want inspire folks to believe in Jesus.
I guess what I am getting at is that looking at the life of Jesus in the context in which he lived and how the Gospels portrait him, his messgae wasn't one of "believing" in him, but more of an adherence to his way-- to his message. Gospels were written in defense of this. The Gospels were written by and for the church-- for those who believed. When I compare Jesus' message found particularly in the synoptics I find a message that is readically different than the Book of Acts and Paul's pitch.
Jesus was the finger that pointed to God and "God's Kingdom" and his followers began to worship the finger rather than what the Finger was pointing to.
Perhaps once we start following to where Jesus was pointing we'll discover that he is the Way or that hs way is the way.
Historically the Church has not done this... it has killed anything and people who have not adhered to one's particlau understanding.
Rick. I haven't been back to your blog in a time but wow, this post is powerful.
Jeff Wrote:
but sometimes we have to be reminded that the gospel it self is offensive to those who do not believe.
Jeff the Gospel IS offensive to those who do not believe that Jesus redeemed ALL of Mankind. Which is pretty much all of the church today. Anytime someone mentions the Redemption of ALL church people get very very offended. Don't believe that just tell your local pastor that Jesus Redeemed ALL and what him/her go to work trying to "save" your soul!
Selah
Grogee Hellow
Don't believe that just tell your local pastor that Jesus Redeemed ALL and watch him/her go to work trying to "save" your soul!
Jeez, Rick, you're speaking to my soul on this one. Another amazing post!
Rick, long time no check.
I see where you coming from, and of course I disagree, as we have done so - many times in the past.
And it's OK for us to have our differences. I guess it's because our different presuppositions on Scripture. I tend to trust accounts written closer to the source rather than my speculations today. I guess I just don't have enough faith on my own understanding...
Bumble,
It's okay to disagree. BTW, I too love the Bible and I think the Word of God is revealed therein along with the Holy Spirit's work within our hearts.
I'm not sure what you mean by trusting accounts written closer to the source than you do today?
I think part of the issue with hermeneutics is that we assume what is written on the page as something we can easily apply today without taking into consideration the context in which the piece was written. Again, many folks who take a more literal view of scripture never give credence to the reality of the various resurrection accounts or more simply the two creation stories in Genesis-- there is disagreement amonng the Gospel writers and the editors of Genesis (along with other parts of scripture). I am not sure there is supposed to be "agreement". The very reality that the Gospels disagree with one another on many accounts is an indication that God wasn't "looking" for agreeement.
I think what we hope for is to surrender our hearts, not to the Bible printed by Zondervan, but to God and the Word becoming flesh through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for coming by again. I am grateful for your comments.
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